BigUn
Politics • Lifestyle • Travel
A place to talk about music, Bourbon, scoots, and the Full Time RV lifestyle
Interested? Want to learn more about the community?
April 17, 2025
Conversations with GROK

Me;

It is my contention that the Roman Empires northern border was because of climate. The Romans relied on grapes and olives, they had no use for land where their two main crops would grow.
Especially north of Hadrian’s wall in ‘Caledonia’, or Scotland.
They didn’t attempt to conquer Scotland not because the ‘Picts’ were formidable, but because they couldn’t grow their crops there.
Is there any evidence to support this contention?

GROK;

Your contention that the Roman Empire’s northern border, particularly at Hadrian’s Wall, was influenced by climate and the inability to grow key crops like grapes and olives is an interesting hypothesis. While climate and agricultural suitability likely played a role in Roman strategic decisions, the evidence suggests a combination of factors, including military, economic, and environmental considerations, shaped the empire’s northern limits. Below, I’ll evaluate the evidence supporting your climate-based argument, focusing on the role of grapes and olives, and address the situation in Caledonia (Scotland).
1. Roman Agriculture and the Importance of Grapes and Olives
Grapes (for wine) and olives (for oil) were central to Roman diet, economy, and culture. These crops thrived in the Mediterranean climate—warm, dry summers and mild, wet winters. The Romans associated these crops with civilized life, and their cultivation was a marker of Romanized landscapes. Land unsuitable for these crops was often less economically valuable to the empire, which relied on agricultural surplus to sustain its cities, armies, and trade networks.
• Evidence for Climate Limitations: The northern regions of Europe, including northern Britain, had cooler, wetter climates less suited to Mediterranean crops. Studies of Roman viticulture indicate that grapevines require specific conditions, including a growing season with sufficient warmth (typically above 10°C for several months) and well-drained soils. Olive trees are even more sensitive, requiring frost-free winters and long, hot summers. North of Hadrian’s Wall, in Caledonia, the climate was colder, with shorter growing seasons and higher rainfall, making large-scale cultivation of grapes and olives challenging.
• Archaeological Evidence: Roman sites in southern Britain (e.g., near modern-day Kent and Sussex) show evidence of vineyards, as indicated by pollen, seeds, and agricultural tools. However, such evidence is scarce in northern Britain, particularly in Scotland. Olive oil amphorae are found across Roman Britain, but these were imported, suggesting local olive cultivation was not viable. This supports the idea that the agricultural potential of northern regions was limited for Rome’s preferred crops.
2. Hadrian’s Wall and the Northern Border
Hadrian’s Wall, constructed around 122 CE, marked the northern boundary of Roman Britain, separating the province from Caledonia. Your argument posits that the Romans stopped here because the land beyond was climatically unsuitable for grapes and olives, rather than due to military resistance from the Picts or other tribes.
• Climatic Evidence: Paleoclimatic studies of the Roman period (roughly 1st–4th centuries CE) indicate that Britain’s climate was slightly warmer than today (during the Roman Warm Period), but northern Britain, especially Scotland, remained cooler and wetter than the south. Pollen records from northern Britain show dominance of cereals, grasses, and cold-tolerant crops like barley, with little evidence of Mediterranean-style agriculture. This suggests that the land north of the wall was less suited to Roman agricultural priorities.
• Agricultural Viability: Roman Britain’s economy relied on grain (wheat and barley), livestock, and some localized wine production in the south. Northern Britain could support grain and pastoral farming, as evidenced by native Caledonian practices, but these were less profitable for Rome’s centralized, surplus-driven economy compared to Mediterranean crops. The lack of high-value crops like grapes and olives may have reduced the economic incentive to conquer and Romanize Caledonia.
3. Military and Strategic Considerations in Caledonia
While climate and agriculture are plausible factors, the historical record emphasizes military and logistical challenges in Rome’s decision not to fully conquer Caledonia. The Picts (a term for various tribes in northern Scotland) and the rugged terrain posed significant obstacles, but these must be weighed against your hypothesis.
• Roman Campaigns in Scotland: The Romans did attempt to conquer Caledonia under emperors like Agricola (c. 77–84 CE), who defeated Caledonian tribes at the Battle of Mons Graupius (c. 83 CE). Temporary forts and the Antonine Wall (built c. 142 CE, further north) indicate Roman interest in controlling parts of Scotland. However, these efforts were short-lived, and the Romans retreated to Hadrian’s Wall by the late 2nd century. This suggests that holding Caledonia was not deemed worth the cost, possibly due to a combination of factors.
• Pictish Resistance: Ancient sources, like Tacitus’ Agricola, describe the Caledonians as fierce and difficult to subdue, but they don’t portray them as invincible. The Picts’ guerrilla tactics and the challenging terrain (hills, bogs, and forests) increased the cost of conquest and occupation. However, these military challenges alone don’t fully explain Rome’s withdrawal, as the empire successfully conquered other difficult regions (e.g., Dacia).
• Economic and Climatic Factors: The limited agricultural potential of Caledonia, as you suggest, likely compounded military challenges. Roman occupation required a network of forts, roads, and settlements supported by local resources or imports. In southern Britain, fertile lands supported this infrastructure, but in Caledonia, the lack of high-value crops like grapes and olives, combined with the need to import supplies, made permanent occupation less viable. The Antonine Wall’s abandonment suggests that the costs of maintaining a frontier so far north outweighed the benefits.
4. Comparative Evidence from Other Roman Frontiers
To test your hypothesis, we can compare Britain’s northern border to other Roman frontiers where climate influenced expansion.
• Germania: The Rhine River became Rome’s northern frontier in Germania after the defeat at Teutoburg Forest (9 CE). Like Caledonia, Germania’s northern regions were cooler and wetter, less suited to grapes and olives. While military defeat was a factor, some scholars argue that the limited agricultural potential of northern Germania reduced Rome’s incentive to push further. This parallels your argument for Caledonia.
• Danube Frontier: In contrast, the Romans expanded along the Danube, where fertile lands supported viticulture and olive cultivation in regions like Pannonia. This suggests that agricultural suitability influenced where Rome invested resources.
5. Counterarguments and Nuances
While your climate-based hypothesis has merit, some counterarguments suggest that climate was not the sole or primary factor:
• Other Resources in Caledonia: Scotland had resources like timber, minerals (e.g., lead, silver), and cattle, which the Romans valued elsewhere. The lack of conquest suggests these were insufficient to justify the costs, but it weakens the argument that agriculture alone dictated the border.
• Adaptability: The Romans adapted to local conditions in other provinces, cultivating cereals and livestock in northern Gaul and southern Britain. They could have done so in Caledonia, but the marginal economic return, combined with military and logistical challenges, likely deterred them.
• Political Decisions: Hadrian’s policy of consolidating frontiers (rather than expanding) influenced the decision to fortify Hadrian’s Wall. This strategic shift may have prioritized defensible borders over agricultural potential.
6. Conclusion
There is substantial evidence to support your contention that climate, particularly the inability to grow grapes and olives, contributed to the Roman Empire’s northern border at Hadrian’s Wall. The cooler, wetter climate of Caledonia limited the cultivation of these high-value crops, reducing the economic incentive for conquest and Romanization. Archaeological and paleoclimatic data confirm that northern Britain was less suited to Mediterranean agriculture, and the retreat from the Antonine Wall suggests that holding Scotland was not cost-effective. However, climate was likely one of several factors, alongside military resistance, terrain, and imperial policy. The Picts were not insurmountable, as you argue, but their resistance, combined with the lack of agricultural payoff, made Caledonia less appealing.
If you’d like, I can search for additional sources or analyze specific Roman texts (e.g., Tacitus) to further refine this answer. Let me know!

Picture; GROK’s representation of itself.

post photo preview
Interested? Want to learn more about the community?
What else you may like…
Videos
Podcasts
Posts
Articles
February 18, 2025
Blast from the past

Baby Sis is having all of her father’s 8mm film library digitized.
I hope that stag film I found isn’t in there.🤣😂🤣😂😂

Here is a short clip of Baby Sis and Mama leaving the hospital.
There’s a handsome 13 yr old young fella that carries her.

For reference, Mama was 5’8”, so at 13, I was 5’9”-5’10”.

00:00:29
December 31, 2024
Sous Vide

‘Under Vacuum’

I sous vide two ribeyes for supper.
2.5 hours at 132 F.
Here I’m ’putting a sear on them’.
I also put in a large roast at the same time, it will be in the water for 27 hours at 132F before I sear it tomorrow.
The roast should be as tender as Prime Rib.

00:01:07
December 17, 2024
Ascension into

Heaven.
I’m jaded when it comes to Cathedrals.
They are my lovely brides favorite thing. She’s even taken an online course all about them.
She loves a flying buttress…
Therefore, I’ve been in a few Cathedrals.
Don’t get me wrong, the craftsmanship and the time it took to build these Monuments, make them incredible.
I just see ‘cause’ for the reformation everywhere.
Especially the one in Toledo, it has a ‘Chapel’ in the corner of the Cloisters dedicated to a bishop and his nephew. Their Sarcophagi, with their likenesses are in the center of the chapel. The Bishop spent the equivalent of millions of dollars, glorifying himself in the 14th century. Money, given as tithes by the poor.

I always try to find the ‘crypt’ to see if they have any ‘Saints’ on display, in glass cases. This Cathedral had one. St Ursula, of the 11,000 virgins. She and her handmaidens were executed by Atilla the Hun, after she refused to marry him.
She is the Patron Saint of young girls.

The one thing that ...

00:01:27
March 02, 2022
This is my Darth Vader voice

For you doubters…
😂🤣😂😂🤣

This is my Darth Vader voice
My little boy

Yes, I had 3 Jacks..
So I’m just a little’msudlin.

post photo preview
Yeah, I sing along

Because I know all the words…
The Prodigal joined in…
He’s just a chip, off the block…
David Allen Coe…

Well, it was all
That I could do to keep from crying'
Sometimes it seemed so useless to remain
But you don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me by my name

You don't have to call me Waylon Jennings
And you don't have to call me Charlie pride
And you don't have to call me Merle Haggard anymore
Even though you're on my fighting' side

And I'll hang around as long as you will let me
And I never minded standing' in the rain
But you don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even called me by my name

Well, I've heard my name
A few times in your phone book (hello, hello)
And I've seen it on signs where I've played
But the only time I know
I'll hear "David Allan Coe"
Is when Jesus has his final judgment day

Well, a friend of mine named Steve Goodman wrote that song
And he told me it was the perfect country & western song
I wrote him back a letter and I told him it was
Not the perfect country & western song...

post photo preview
Friday night at a bar

Well, not much else to do here.
I’m drinking ‘Jack and Diet Coke’…
I’m on an impromptu 36 hour fast.
Spaghetti and Lasagna with garlic bread for supper, so I passed.
I may actually catch a buzzzzz.
Being large gives you a high alcohol tolerance…

post photo preview
November 30, 2022
The Day I Retired

Its almost the sixth anniversary...

 

Some of you may have looked at my photos and thought; what young looking handsome man… He couldn't be old enough to retire …

 

Thank you Mama

 

Anyway, I am 60 and I retired at 55 in July of 2017. I was given a retainer for two more months in order to be on call. I couldn’t always get a reliable Internet connection and I can’t take someone’s money for nothing, so I shut that down in Sept 2017…

 

So you are thinking, what day in July did you retire? I didn’t really retire in July 2017. I quit going to work then…

 

I retired Thursday, around 1:35 PM, December 15, 2016…

 

Life was good for @The_CINC and I.

It was shortly before Christmas 2016. Tiny dancer, our surprise baby was a junior in college. We had a 4K sqft house on 7 acres, 40 miles south of Washington DC. It was our second house in 33 yrs of marriage. We had lived there for over 20 yrs. The final house payment was due Nov 10, 2017.

The CINC was at the highest point you can achieve as a civilian Govt Employee without going into the Senior Executive Service. When she was offered SES, the CINC had gotten to the point at which it would have meant more work, more time away from home, for no more money (because of the pay structure) for at least five to seven years. We also knew we wanted to Retire, so it made no sense to invest the time required for an SES position.

She worked for OSD, DOD, WHS (The office that runs the Pentagon, they are the ‘Landlords’) for 34 years. At one point she ran a division that had a yearly budget of $1 Billion.

She would be eligible to retire in April 2017. We really hadn’t decided what we were going to do. My top-secret NSA/DOD clearance was supposed to be coming through anytime. One of my specialties was encrypted secure communications.

I was a subcontractor for IBM and they were paying $50,000 for my vetting. It had been 2 years because I was a traveling consultant that didn’t associate with my neighbors… I was gone all of the time and I couldn’t see any of them from my house anyway..

Once that clearance came through, I could double or triple my salary which wasn’t small in the first place.

Here we were, at the top of our earning potential, few bills, house almost paid for, kids all gone…

 

Life was good…

 

Then Thursday, around 1:35 PM, December 15, 2016, happened…

I was in Birmingham AL, working at the US HQ, of a regional US bank that had been acquired by a Spanish bank. I was digitizing and updating their manual and electronic bank and treasury transactions. I had been on this contract for three years. The last 10 months or so I had been mostly remote, working from my lazy boy.

They wanted me to come in for some end of the year meetings and Christmas parties.

I flew in Monday mornings, getting to the office around 10:00 AM. I would work 10 hours Monday, 12-14 Tuesday and Wednesday, 6-8 Thursday and then catch a flight home around 4:00 pm Thursday. I would have 40-45 hours in 4 days by the time I caught my flight home.

 

I was sitting at my ‘station’, there weren’t really ‘cubes’, just tables with 3-4” dividers that had plugs. It was basically a giant open room, semi closed at each end by meeting rooms. My seat was near the meeting rooms. Behind me to my right was a large opening which led to a spacious elevator lobby.

The bank of elevators were the divider for another large working area. If you really tried, you could easily get 150-200 people in the elevator lobby.

 

I had just come back from lunch. I was trying to wrap a few things up before heading to the airport. A woman calmly walks behind me and says “Does anybody know first aid?”

I stood up “Excuse me?!?” She pointed to the elevator lobby behind her.

So I walked that way to see what was happening…

 

I am a trained first responder. I was a police officer at the pentagon and I was a FFX County VA police officer. I am also a trained BSA leader with back country first aid training.

 

As I entered the elevator lobby I saw an extremely obese man laying partially on his back. A woman by his side rubbing his hand looking concerned. Another man near his feet watching. I looked around, there were about 10 gawkers.

“MA’AM!”

I startled the woman to look at me…

“We have to treat him for shock”

First thing I could think of, get him flat on his back, elevate his feet.

"Go get that footstool"

That gave her something to do and think about.

I looked at the gentleman "Find me something to keep him warm."

I got him on his back. He must have weighed 400 Lbs.

I ripped his shirt open, put my head on his chest.

No Breathing, no heartbeat.

I took his pulse at his carotid artery to make sure.

No, pulse, his face was white, blue lips, his eye lids were partially open, his eyes were already clouding over...

He was already dead.

I looked up for a second...

At least 175-200 people were watching me...

I could hear people sobbing..

Where the hell did they all come from?

So I measured up his sternum, and began compressions..

If you've never really done CPR...

The first time will gross you out. I broke every bone in his chest away from his sternum. It sounded like I was crushing a bag of potato chips.

Another gentleman, kneeling beside me asked "Shouldn't you do the breaths?"

I was doing this for show. I knew he was dead. I have seen and handled many dead bodies. He was already dead, he wasn't coming back.

I looked over at the decedent's face, my compressions were forcing his lunch out of his mouth.

"Turn his head to the side, sweep his mouth, knock yourself out."

About that time a woman came over with an automatic defibrillator.

As I was giving compressions, I talked her through placement of the electrodes. She was so upset, she couldn't read the instructions.

She placed the electrodes, hit the switch, and audible countdown started from 15. When it got to one, it would send the charge.

I kept doing compressions until the Defib audibly said 'CLEAR', at which time, for some reason , I through my arms up like a touchdown. As soon as the cycle was over, I started compressions again.

I was starting to get winded, when I heard the elevators open and EMTs emerged.

one immediately kneeled across from me and took over.

 

I simply stood up, and walked away.

I didn't want to be there anymore.

I walked back to my station, and packed my stuff.

I was going to the airport.

As luck would have it..

I followed the gurney down to the lobby, one of the EMTs on the guy's chest still giving compressions.

 

On the drive to the airport, the shakes hit... I can stay extremely calm in the most stressful situations, but it takes a heavy toll later.

After arriving at my gate, I sat down, my cell phone rang. It was my boss from the bank "I just wanted to let you know that the guy didn't make it."

'I know" I said, "I knew that before I left, thanks for letting me know"

 

I called @The_CINC and told her everything. I then said "I don't want to die in a cube farm. Let's retire"

 

The Bank, and my employer tried to do some kind of ceremony for me. I told them not to, it was a dumb idea. If he would have lived it would have been a celebration of his life. He died, there was nothing to be proud of.

 

That was why they gave me the retainer...

Read full Article
See More
Available on mobile and TV devices
google store google store app store app store
google store google store app tv store app tv store amazon store amazon store roku store roku store
Powered by Locals